Harry’s Place Arts

Oh, this is good. So fresh from condemning Christian Voice for wanting to censor a statue and some poetry, you go on to call for some music to be censored?

But you like to think of yourself as “an ardent defender of free speech”. Not sure why, when it seems you are simply an ardent hypocrite.

(Don’t forget to add this show to your black list.)

John Little, I try not to be brusk with people who may, for all I know, be too young you have mastered elementary reading and comprehension, but I explained to you yesterday at some legnth why incitements to violence should not be protected as free speech.

Brett, you can’t incite yourself, only others. The odious Oi! lyric fails this test, as does the hip-hop lyric in the full article. You may have mastered elementary reading and comprehension, but obviously not elementary jurisprudence.

“Brett, you can’t incite yourself, only others. “

When people in authority, or who are admired, or who have influence glorify or express the desirability of violence towards a specific identifiable group, particularly through a mass medium, then it is incitement. It contributes towards a climate of hostility, fear and intimidation in which free expression cannot flourish.

People can express their dislike for other groups, their disapproval, and even disgust, but the when they start talking about killing them, they have crossed a line. Beyond this line is a climate where the free exchange of ideas can no longer take place because fear and intimidation are the enemies of free expression.

When people in authority, or who are admired, or who have influence glorify or express the desirability of violence towards a specific identifiable group, particularly through a mass medium, then it is incitement.

No it isn’t. It has nothing to do with whether someone is in authority or not, or admired, or have “influence” (whatever that means), or whether it’s towards a “specific identifiable group” (more bullshit), or the medium. You’ve made two posts in two days arguing that certain people should be arrested for incitement, and you haven’t even bothered to find out what the law on incitement prohibits, the conditions necessary for it to apply, or even that the offence itself no longer exists.

Here is a wiki page explaining it, and here is another page with lyrics to get your knickers in even more of a twist.

Have a nice weekend and don’t forget that your homework is due on Monday monring!

oops, here …

Beyond this line is a climate where the free exchange of ideas can no longer take place because fear and intimidation are the enemies of free expression.

Brett, this is such hysterical crap. You admit that you had never heard of Trick Trick before you wrote the article, you deliberately sought out offensive lyrics, and you have not experienced any fear or intimidation due to hearing them, nor has your freedom of expression been compromised. In fact, it would be more accurate to say that these lyrics actually inspired you to express yourself and write the article, wouldn’t it? So give it a rest, for God’s sake (no pun intended).

“you deliberately sought out offensive lyrics”

No, it’s been in the news, actually. And I’ve been campaigning against lyrics that glorify gay-bashing for years. These lyrics seek to normalise a violent response to lesbian and gay people. There is objective evidence that LGBT people suffer a disproportionate level of violence and this climate is feeds off a variety of soucrs, including popular music. It is particularly bad in Jamaica.

You may want to argue that the shap on the soapbox in teh market square bursting a vein shreiking about the dirty, fithy, evil Jews is only excecising his speech and this speech is unconnected to the thugs smashing up Jewish shops and attacking Jews in the street if you like, but I see it differently.

As I stated in my article, I do not seek to silence Trick Trick or anyone else voicing their opinions, however strongly, about homosexuality or any other subject. But suggestions that gay people should be attacked or killed goes too far.

Incidentally, would you sign a petition urging the unbanning of Skrewdiriver on the BBC. Should the Beep be playing material describing the desire to kill black people?

Its is reasonable to assume that men such as Mr. Trick who make violently homophobic statements may be motivated by homosexual feelings which they have difficulty acknowledging. A century after Freud proposed the role of homosexual anxiety I think many people would regard this as a truism. The difficulty in Mr. Trick’s case is likely to be related to social pressure which he is then contributing to in a vicious cycle. The question therefore about whether to ban or to silence has to be tempered by a consideration of the social value in having a safety valve, a means whereby unacceptable expressions of hate can be expressed, in the hope that they will then be available for inspection by those who could, at some stage, reflect back to Mr. Trick and others who repress their sexuality the deeper nuances that are contained in what in many respects is a cry for help and acceptance, by himself and others.

My view on incitement to violence is that you have to have proximity between the incitement and the act incited in order to ban. And the test should be a strict one.

So, the question here is: is there a real possibility that some persons listening to this music would be likely to act on them, and attack a gay person. I don’t know the answer to that question. I think it possible: but I’d want to know a bit more about the cultural context in which the exhortation takes place. For example, is there any particular reason to expect murderers to be looking to singers for inspiration? Is this man regarded as a moral or political or religious leader?

It is undoubtedly the case that this man contributes to a general culture in which homosexuals are denigrated, attacked and killed. I’m not sure it is sufficient to ban.

I would ban religious groups, like Al Muhajiroun: which are led by religious leaders, whose followers believe them to be intermediaries of the divine will, and whose message is that they are engaged in a war.

I wouldn’t play his songs on my radio show, though.

The problem with banning a subject in lyrics - even if that is direct exhortations to violence - is that such a ban can be used to suppress more ambiguous, ambivalent works of art (which are often the most interesting and thought-provoking works) because their creators refuse to be explicit about intent. After all - to pick an example of an artist considered quite ‘establishment’ nowadays - Nick Cave sings some pretty gruesome songs that could very easily be read as glorifications of murder, particularly murder of women, if their author didn’t say “these are fictions”.

“Nick Cave sings some pretty gruesome songs that could very easily be read as glorifications of murder, particularly murder of women, if their author didn’t say “these are fictions”.”

Obviously, there is a difference between narrative themes written and presented in a, shall we say, ‘cinematic’ way, and the glorification of actual violence that occurs in the real world. There are not people who believe women should be exterminated. There are women who believe black people, Jews, and gays should be killed.

In Jamaica, for example, gay people are routinely beaten and often murdered on teh streets. To then have songs exhorting people to beat and kill gays blaring out of speakers can’t be helping.

But as I say in my article, let’s be consistant. When the BBC start playing songs glorifying Jew-bashing and HMV starts stocking overtly racist songs, maybe I’ll review my position on violently antigay music.

So that’s a free pass exclusively for genres of music you’re familiar with?

I think your article could have used a link to Eminem apologising for homophobia, I can’t remember that happening though I do recall him explaining some lyrics to the overliteral

“So that’s a free pass exclusively for genres of music you’re familiar with?”

How so?

Are you familiar with Skrewdriver and do you think the fact they’re denied airplay is a grave injustice?

Can’t say I’m familiar with skrewdriver tbh. Broadcasting skrewdriver in general programming might be inappropriate for the BBC, but In the context of a late night documentary about racist music (for example) I think it’d be defensible.

It’s always been the case that you could buy music that the radio wouldn’t play. Can’t see any reason why shops should be expected to ban trick.

“but In the context of a late night documentary about racist music (for example) I think it’d be defensible.”

Of course, and I’d have no problem with that either, or with broadcasting antigay or antisemitic hate songs in a similar context.

“It’s always been the case that you could buy music that the radio wouldn’t play. Can’t see any reason why shops should be expected to ban trick.”

For the same reason they won’t stock Skrewdriver or any of those neo-Nazi bands or white supremacist bands.

But is that policy or just lack of demand / availiability of CD’s with a barcode?

“But is that policy or just lack of demand / availiability of CD’s with a barcode?”

That is seriously clutching at straws!

You can’t simply point to the presence on the shelves of a well promoted major label new release like trick and the unobtainability of an out of print 30 year old record that wasn’t even very popular when it was new as evidence of anything untoward imo.

Jon, as I understand it, Skrewdriver had a huge following and any band without that political baggage would have been signed. Also, racist neo-nazi bands all over Europe are selling CDs by the crateload, apparently, via the Internet. I’m absolutely certain that if they thought they could get the respectibility of being stocked in HMV or played on MTV they would go for it.

Do you honestly think that a band expressing violently racist ideas would get a “a well promoted major label new release” in the first place?

I thought that incitement to hatred of various groups was already illegal in many European countries. Cases come up in Italy. Here you can get into trouble for critcising the Pope, whom I detest. But I think David T knows more about this than I do. But what more can you want than inciting to murder for prosecution?

I see an even more serious problem in the fact that propoganda and art are irreconcilable. Propogandistic music is always bad music and bad music is damaging. You can give a rock concert promoting liberty, while the music in its structure and fitfully repetitive impulses may be saying, “I want to be a slave, I want to be a slave!” Music has a life and meaning of its own, irrespective of the words attached to it. Of course there have been wondeful combinations

“Propogandistic music is always bad music and bad music is damaging. ”

I would reconsider that statement. The Marseillaise for instance - that’s a fine rousing tune. So is Rule Britannia. So is The Internationale. A great mass of Western music was written for state or church occasions, to celebrate the greatness of some king for instance.

I wouldn’t play his songs on my radio show, though.

Your radio show would be basically Morrissey FM though, wouldn’t it?

So why can celebrities get away with saying “faggot” but not “nigger”?

Hip-hop artists say “nigger” all the time. I guess you give them a pass (not even worth mentioning, eh?) because most are black. Though what about white fans who sing along?

Incidentally, saying “nigger” or “faggot” is hardly incitement to violence, so why don’t you stop pretending that it’s the prevention of violence that is inspiring your witch-hunt?

For the same reason they won’t stock Skrewdriver or any of those neo-Nazi bands or white supremacist bands.

WTF are you talking about, Brett?

The simple truth is that the left have always been deeply hypocritical about free speech. There has always been a relativist approach which deems that views offensive to the left should be banned whilst those views equally offensive to their political opponents should not be while all the time paying lip service to freedom of speech. The current Government have turned that relativism into an art form of the highest precision, and all those supposedly anti racist Trots, who hide their anti semitism behind claimed support for the Palestinian cause, clearly prove my point.

What has occurred around the homophobia of certain Black musical artists is that many on the left, but in particular the Labour party, have undertaken a basic, and deeply cynical, piece of electoral calculus which leads them to believe that whilst racism offends their supporters and affects their votes, homophobia is actually quite strong amongst Afro Caribbeans and very strong amongst Muslims, particularly South Asian ones. So until the Gay community has electoral clout on the same level as those two ethnic groups do this is unlikely to change.

John Little, no one said merely saying nigger or faggot was incitement.

The only “Skrewdriver” Amazon UK has is this band

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Road-Block-Screwdriver/dp/B000Q6ZHCE/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1227026344&sr=1-11

And I don’t think they’re exactly white supremecists.

cdzone.co.uk

cdwow.com

It’s pretty clear that there is no difficulty at all buying Skrewdriver’s CDs in the UK from British retailers.

John, from what I’m told, Skrewdriver weren’t always a neo-Nazi band, so for all I know, the CDs you found are very tame. I have no idea. CDwow, by the way, is not a UK site.

I’m not entirely sure what your point is becuase I didn’t say they were completely unavailable - merely that the BBC wouldn’t play them and big retailers like HMV would be unlikely to stock them.

I’m not entirely sure what your point is becuase I didn’t say they were completely unavailable - merely that the BBC wouldn’t play them and big retailers like HMV would be unlikely to stock them.

I’m too am not sure what your point, as the BBC won’t play Cliff Richard, and there are any number of bands which big retailers won’t stock. But it’s your point so feel free to develop it any way you like. As long as it’s not that you can’t buy the music of racist bands in the UK, because you obviously can. And from British retailers as well.

John. It’s getting a bit boring chasing your straw men. Nobody ever said Skrewdriver weren’t for sale anywhere in the UK, and it is patently obvious that there are varieties of reasons why HMV might not stock one band or another or why the BBC might not play one or another. Anyway, I just googled “Cliff Richard BBC” and learned that they’ve recently done a 6 part documentary series on him, and I’m sure it was him rabbitting on about some charity drive on BBC Breakfast recently.

Brett, it’s basic fact-checking, and the problem is you haven’t done any. I just checked out the HMV UK site and they don’t seem to sell anything by Trick Trick. The premise of your article is nonsense and your argument amounts to nothing more than confected outrage and tilting at windmills. Can you even tell us the last time that Trick Trick was played by the BBC? I doubt it.

“I just checked out the HMV UK site and they don’t seem to sell anything by Trick Trick.”

Except his new album for £10.99 - or doesn’t that count for some convoluted reason?

“Availability: currently out of stock”

So what about the last time the BBC played him? Found that out yet?

(Basic fact-checking, Brett.)

JOhn. I don’t care to continue this because you’re behaving liek a cretin and twisting things merely to be argumentatitive. It is clear to anyone that there is a difference between an item being “out of stock” and not being for sale as you earlier claimed. I have no real idea of what point you’re trying to make other than being obnoxious. It is perfectly clear that HMV did sell the album until their stock ran out, and, since you can still add it to your shopping basket, will sell it to you and will dispatch it when they get new stock. But I’m sure you knew that.

It is quite obvious that you don’t hear racist and antisemitic music on the radio, whereas the BBC included Elephant Man’s “Log On (and step on chi-chi man)” in a promo for its 1Xtra station. Beenie Man, Buju Banton and several others get regular airplay. There is quite obviously no policy of banning homophobic artists.

My view on incitement to violence is that you have to have proximity between the incitement and the act incited in order to ban. And the test should be a strict one.

Hypocritical (and feeble-minded) bollocks. When you say ‘Kill the Jews’ 1000 times a day, and no Jew gets killed except 6 months later, there is no ‘proximity’ - but it’s still incitement.

I’m absolutely certain that if they thought they could get the respectibility of being stocked in HMV or played on MTV they would go for it.

I have seen various “National Socialist Black Metal” CDs in HMV.

“Propogandistic music is always bad music and bad music is damaging. ” Felix

I would reconsider that statement. The Marseillaise for instance - that’s a fine rousing tune. So is Rule Britannia. So is The Internationale. A great mass of Western music was written for state or church occasions, to celebrate the greatness of some king for instance. KB Player

The tunes you named belong precisely to the category of bad music and are associated with mass hysteria, as are other types of music which I will not name. It is interesting to note that, in examples of propogandistic ‘art,’ fascism, communism, capitalism are indistinguishable from one another. Good music negates them all. It would be easy to fool someone into thinking that an exhibition of communist social realism was in fact an exhibition of approved Nazi art. They react according to their prejudices. I have tried many such experiments only too successfully.

Haydn admired the tune of God Save the Queen and went home to write a national anthem for Austria, which later became Deutschland, Deutschland ueber Alles. But Haydn was a cyclical composer and committed to developing his material. so he could see possibilities in the tritest of themes (as could Beethoven in the Diabelli Variations). Haydn did compose variations on that theme. Beethoven ruined his 9th Symphony with the Hymn to Joy to an awful poem by Schiller, which contains the words, “Let him who can’t join in remain weeping outside.”

Propoganda in all its forms is bad.

Composers were also able, despite state occasion, to write good music. But I don’t know quite what you mean by ‘great Kings’ and still less what you mean by ‘a great mass of Western music written for state and etc. occasions.” I find it hard to think of examples. Haydn wrote the Nelson Mass in honour of that war hero, but the music itself has nothing to do with him.